The political costs of driving. 

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 12/11/2018 at 00:56 • Filed to: None

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Around one out of five people in this city move by car, but it often seems like politicians cater specifically to this minority of commuters when it comes to promises and spending.

After all, the two things Obrador will be remembered for as Mayor of Mexico City will be the elevated ring road and the elderly pension program he created... out of hundreds of things he did. My new mayor isn’t any better either. Although she ran, alike pretty much everyone, on reducing congestion and improving public transportation, she also ran on giving drivers more “freedom”

Which means that Mexico City doesn’t have speed cameras anymore, and in January illegally parked cars won’t be clamped anymore, nor will we ever need to take a driver’s test (even if it was scheduled to begin) in order to get a license. In this month alone four cyclists were killed by rouge drivers here... Not sure that de-regulating driving is helping.

Specially since driving a car inside a city is fucking horrible for everyone. They take up lots of space, the use way too much fuel, and they are antisocial in pretty much every way. Why is this mayor giving us more rights? We’re a minority that uses the most resources to do the least!

Maybe it has to do with the fact that if you own a car, you might have a lot more time to go and check out what candidates offer you, and since one of our most controlable sources of stress is our morning commute, politicians can really milk that fact: It’s a lazy way to earn votes since typical automotive infrastructure is a lot cheaper than public transportation infrastructure .

Raising the speed limit from 50 to 70km/h, what will that do? Nothing! Your commute will shorten by like five minutes at best. But when you can’t do it you feel like you must do it. That visceral feeling that if it weren’t for that one thing (speed limit, lane, pothole, whatever) you’d be able to get home faster... that’s where they clamp on to.

But in the end it explains why protests occur the way they do. I always complain about them for making my commute longer, but truthfully I get it now. For a year no one cared about the parents of a school with structural damage, yet they stopped the flow of the aforementioned ring road for three hours (only three hours) and they cut a deal with the government on the very same day. Three fucking hours got them what a year of requests didn’t.

which is kind of sad... 20% shouldn’t be the people that matter to politicians.

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 01:02

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Fuck having cars in cities, ban them outright, they have no place there. Invest 90% of the infrastructure money in public transport and move on.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 01:05

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The average population density does not lend itself to a private-car-based transportation system. It made sense in post-war USA, but that’s an anomaly and is no longer the case in many American cities.

I’m going to post a very hot take by Oppo standards: Private car ownership by the masses is the scourge of efficient metro area transportation.  Modern day population densities are best served by public transport.

Spanfeller is a twat > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 12/11/2018 at 01:05

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I wouldn’t ban them, but I would make them incredibly   inconvenient. I’m talking about satellite road pricing, congestion zones, hefty fines for speeding  ,  and making getting a license super complex. 

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 01:07

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Just ban them past a certain point, they accomplish nothing, and in extremely dense cities only act as an impediment.

Spanfeller is a twat > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/11/2018 at 01:08

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Like... Europe doesn’t have it that bad. Lots of people have cars in Europe... it’s just that they only use them when they need them (say, shopping trips, or a vacation, etc) and for commuting to work they use public transportation which occupies a lot less room. 

Spanfeller is a twat > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 12/11/2018 at 01:10

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I think that making some streets pedestrian-only would be an interesting exercise. 

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/11/2018 at 01:29

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That’s not really a hot take. In urban areas, an extremely robust public transport network should not be a secondary thought, it should be the primary way that people move. Car-based traffic needs to be limited to an absolute minimum in a city. If you can get there just as fast, or even faster than a car, by using your own two feet to walk to a train/bus/etc, you de-incentivize car ownership heavily.

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 01:29

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An interesting exercise for people who walk down them.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 12/11/2018 at 01:32

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But but but muh freedom, ‘Murica, etc.

atfsgeoff > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 12/11/2018 at 01:32

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How are people who live in cities but work in other, far away cities, supposed to commute to work without a car?

I live in a moderate sized city of ~130,000 population, and I work in a small town of 4600 people that’s 47 miles away. There is no public transport that goes between these two places.

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/11/2018 at 01:34

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You have freedom to drive.

Out of the city, where there’s good roads.

Future Heap Owner > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 01:47

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I’d imagine that  your 130k-pop city would only have a fairly small car no-go area, that you likely don’t live in. Or it’s not so dense that you couldn’t make half the streets ped / bike only.

atfsgeoff > Future Heap Owner 12/11/2018 at 01:49

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The city has an average population density of 2,000/square mile

Future Heap Owner > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 01:54

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Really sad to hear about those cyclists. Your new mayor should have to tell their families.

Do you have any links to news articles on the circumstances of those deaths? Artículos en Español son suficientes.

Future Heap Owner > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 01:58

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Mine is over double that density, has five times the total pop, and we have a solid (for America) network of car-light, bike heavy streets, and a small downtown core ( only a few square miles, maybe less than two) where cars really might as well be banned anyways for all the good they do during peak  hours.

atfsgeoff > Future Heap Owner 12/11/2018 at 02:07

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...Yeah I tend to avoid cities with that high of a population density like the plague.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 02:24

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everyone needs to take a test to drive

Future Heap Owner > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 02:28

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Reasonable

RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/11/2018 at 03:11

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That’s actually only a mildly warm take for anyone who’s played Cities: Skylines and realizes the limits of the car as a means of getting people around. I chuckled when recently the LA Metro suggested congestion pricing to fund free public transportation because that’s basically what I had to do in-game.

BigBlock440 > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 07:47

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which is kind of sad... 20% shouldn’t be the peopl e tha t matter to politicians.

Hmm...Politicians shouldn’t care about the minority population? Interesting take.

Raising the speed limit from 50 to 70km/h, what will that do? Nothing! Your commute will shorten by like five minutes at best.

5 minutes a day could make a decent difference in the quality of life. What is gained by spending the extra 5 minutes on the road? The speed limits would presumably also apply to buses.

I don’t know why anyone would want to drive in a heavily populated city anyway, unless they have somebody driving them or have to drive outside of it .

WilliamsSW > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 08:31

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Ah, but that 20% is mostly the wealthiest 20%, and has the wealth to donate to, say, political candidates.

WilliamsSW > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 08:33

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Those are the ones that need to reduce dependence on cars though, not yours. 

fintail > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/11/2018 at 09:16

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Definitely the case in cities . Unfortunately, you gotta pay for it. In Seattle, the lucky generation kicked the can down the road, and now we are faced with the fun combination of gridlock and insane bills.`

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 09:20

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Y ou’re willing to give up your own private transport though, right?

I am all for transit.  In my neck of the woods, it seems a lot of anti-car people don’t really have plans to ditch their bloatling CUV for a bus pass, just as those who preach upzoning and development won’t trade their comfy houses in Magnolia or Woodridge for a condo in Beacon Hill.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 12/11/2018 at 10:34

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I mean, I have given up my car some days but I should try to stop commuting by car . I’m not going to abandon it 100% nor do I expect anyone else who drives to do so. Should I drive less? Yes. Should I be taxed more for driving? Yes. Should driving be harder? Yes. Should they ban cars outright? No.

Spanfeller is a twat > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 10:35

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Park-and-ride

Spanfeller is a twat > Future Heap Owner 12/11/2018 at 10:44

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Fourth one was outisde Mexico City, it was Pueblas Secretary of Transportation 

Spanfeller is a twat > BigBlock440 12/11/2018 at 10:47

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A priviledged minority group shouldn’t wield as much power as they do 

atfsgeoff > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 10:48

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Even if there was a park and ride that catered to my relatively uncommon commute, I use my car almost every day to visit work clients and do service calls, often carrying multiple desktop computers, laptops , printers, etc.

I would not be able to do my job effectively without daily access to a car, and neither would a plumber, landscaper, electrician, or just about any other tradesman.

Spanfeller is a twat > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 11:05

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Most schemes exempt work vehicles

Spanfeller is a twat > Future Heap Owner 12/11/2018 at 11:39

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iirc two cases were of cyclists leaving the cycle-lane because of an obstacle (parked car) and were ran over by a car. Last case was a truck running over a woman (ecobici one)

As for Pueblas DoT; ran over by a truck as well. 

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 12:38

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I agree on the ban part, and on driving being harder. Here anyway, however, taxing all drivers more results in regressive taxation, as people move far from employment centers due to the lack of affordable housing, and there’s no viable transit in many cheaper housing areas. These people often aren’t the highest income earners or wealth holders, and maybe shouldn’t bear the brunt.  

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 12/11/2018 at 12:40

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Park-and-ride in the outskirts of the city, plus you can tax relative to vehicle value. 

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 12:46

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How much of that exists on a developed level that will meet the needs of commuters? Park and rides aren’t free, either. We have them here, too, and they work for some, but traffic isn’t gridlock for no reason.

Taxing cars based on value can work.  I’d give an income-based exemption or a floor before the tax takes effect, too.

I live in an area with a lot of offshore-based real estate transactions and speculation. I think that should be taxed to a high degree, and the funds used for infrastructure. Let those who benefit most from a society pay the most to maintain it.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > atfsgeoff 12/11/2018 at 12:48

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Typically, European cities, towns, villages, etc. are built around rail stations.

When I interned very briefly in Germany, I would bike from my host family’s village to the local S-B ahn (which is basically suburban commuter rail) stop, which gets me into town. It connects to the city’s U-Bahn (urban metro, mostly underground )   network.

American cities are not built that way, but they can move towards that to reduce congestion . In your case, you’ll still need a car unless your job provides a hypothetical shuttle to/from the nearest hypothetical train station.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 12:50

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A simple way to get cars out of the city is to set incredibly expensive parking prices.

In many denser downtowns there is literally nowhere to park private cars.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 12/11/2018 at 12:52

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Ah yes.... taxing real-estate speculation... that is brilliant. We were about to enact it but the citizens basically rioted cus the media sold the tax as a tax on the “small guys” selling million-dollar listings.

But OH do we love complaining about gentrification after we sell our houses almost tax free  to a faceless corporate overlord!

I swear, the people in this city, they’re as stubborn as they are incompetent.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 12/11/2018 at 12:53

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A hybrid satellite road pricing scheme, deductible based on vehicle value and income, would work... But in reality what should be going on is incentivizing sources of income closer to where people live. 

Spanfeller is a twat > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 12/11/2018 at 12:56

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That is true.... but something has to be done to avoid destroying the economy of the suburbs and exburbs. It’s mostly an american problem, but we’re getting there too. Of our ten most populous cities, only five have a metro system, and only like seven have a BRT service. 

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 14:22

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It’s the same here - the lucky ones winning the real estate lottery (those who bought for 75K in 1985 and now have 1MM+ via nothing but accidental timing ) don’t want to risk slowing the market more than it is already, so it would never happen. The American “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” phenomenon also kicks in for such ideas. It’s not just your city, I think it is the entire west coast of the US as well.  Vancouver has a 15% (I think) tax on the speculators.

Toll roads can also be a regressive tax, one needs to be careful, especially if tolling roads in and out of lower income areas . Housing closer to workplaces should also incentivized - if that means the lucky ones have to give up their detached houses on large lots to be replaced by highrises , then so be it. 1950s housing dreams in modern urban environments just doesn’t work.

Spanfeller is a twat > fintail 12/11/2018 at 17:31

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I think satellite road pricing solves most issues with regressive taxation...

fintail > Spanfeller is a twat 12/11/2018 at 21:49

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Isn’t that just distance-based tolling?  At least in my area, it isn’t the upper echelons who have the longest commutes.